Saturday, December 17, 2005

Edu blues

I am very concerned about the standard of education especially so-called higher education in Pakistan. And I dont keep things wrapped in sweet coating, so I name people and institutions openly in my discussions.
Recently, a friend of mine was delivering a seminar at PAF KIET. Now, we already know that the intake in IT related programs in all so-called universities is very poor lately and the intake at PAF KIET, unfortunately, isnt Stanford quality either. What's even worse is that except for a few, the teachers are even worse than the students. Take a load of this.
When my friend talked about polymorphism, inheritance and generalization etc to final year computer science students, every single one of the students were stumped, which embarassed the dean and faculty present at the moment. On their way to the Dean's office, they ran into a faculty member, to whom the Dean complained that he was very disappointed that the students could not answer basic questions about polymorphism, inheritance, generalization etc. To this the teacher responded, "I'm not the Database teacher." When asked what he taught, he said, he taught MFC.
This is a crime and everyone involved should be hung. These idiots are destroying a whole generation. I'm sure it is not limited to computer related institutes, either. And to think that PAF KIET is one of the institutes who are most active in shaping their curricula in line with the industry's requirements through active collaboration and reviews. The Industry keeps complainig of inferior quality output from IT institutes. No wonder.
No one cares! You expect the government to take action in this regard? Parents have a responsibility they dont feel. Students have a responsibility they dont feel. Teachers have a responsibility they dont feel. I'm wasting my Internet dialup time here. I cant think of one walk of life in Pakistan that feels responsibility, so let's suffice at that.
Have you noticed that the nation is looking at Geo as their saviour lately? Just look a bit harder and you'll see. People are reaching out to Geo with their complaints hoping that they'll get them solved. No one can solve our problems except ourselves, and one thing is for sure, we dont want to solve them. We wish there were a magic stick, we're waiting for a miracle that will never come.

17 comments:

Muhammad Qasim Pasta said...

Completely agree, but causes? Yes every one has to take responsibility.

I would not like to go in deep but in short being a student what I found is that students are in state of uncertainty. Being realistic they are only learning for getting marks or grade; yes its true even in professional education. Reason? The answer can start a thread of blaming but without going for such thread in my opinion the basic problem is the link between industry and educational institute. Teachers don’t want to join industry and industry people don’t want to join institutes, and students think either for Marks or for jobs.

Agree, the conclusion will be at take responsibility, but in which form and can one way traffic make some thing considerable?

Anonymous said...

Amazed after reading from your views, The teachers are responsible more , secondly there should be standard criteria for admitting in teaching profession but you can't be agree that all of them should be responsible for it. And as 2 yrs have been passed for me as a student from PAF-Kiet & working as MIS Coordinator in dubai you cannot said that the those which are being passing out from pafkiet are all worst then else .Infact we have been taught for all these generalization,polymorphism,inheritence and some basics more in our First semester under Object oriented programming course. And As I have read I get shocked, Basically in pakistan who will admit to reponsible for getting worst faculty infact, those who are at bachelors level or have done some courses from aptech etc are teaching to same bachelors level. There should be some exchange of knowledge from a PHD Mind to a student at bachelors level. Actually we in pakistan are all out of system .and everybody is emphasizing on quantity not on quality .

Anonymous said...

First of all Assalamalikum and Bismillah-hirrehmaanir-raheem

I m prety much disappoint fot this therad related to PAF KIET...

Mine friend Hammad Rajjoub was in the visiting faculty in the PAF KIET few months ago... and he knows the caliper of faculty as well as the caliper of students in PAF KIET and my dear friend Saqib Saheb "APP KO SHAYED PETA NAHE HIA K PAF KIET MAIN BBA,MBA,BS(CS) SAB K STUDENTS BETHAY HOTEY HIAN SIEMENAR MAIN, APP KO KIS TERHAN PETA CHALA K VOH SAB BS Computer Science k Final Year Students hian" Kaise k barey main aisey comments pass kerney sey pehley 10000.. Times sooch lia karin.... I m also PAF KIET Graduate and i know most of my friends working in Software houses and some of them are working in KALSOFT who is Microsoft Solution Provider.... IS LIA ZERA DEKH BHALL K COMMENTS DIA KARIN....aur jin k app baat ker rahey hian generalization, polymorphism,inheritence, etc etc . yeh sab 1st semester main perhaii jati hian PAF KIET main .....I Dont know app Pakistan k perhey hoye hian aur phir bhe nahe jantey... MVP kis terhan ban gay.... ab tu app per bhe shak ho reha hia mughay......

Dont be so Embarrassed....
and DONT DELETE MY COMMENT....

Muhammad Saqib Ilyas said...

To first anonymous: In order not to generalize, I used the term "not Stanford quality" which means there are bound to be some students of good caliber.
To both anonymous: You can pretty much see how much PAF KIET has diluted in terms of student quality.
To second anonymous: I did think as many times as you suggested, before posting the blog entry. Hammad is my friend, too, and I know why he stopped teaching there. I also know another long time professional who has taught at PAF KIET and was asked by PAF KIET Dean to pass a ceratin student who had lied about her father's medical condition to miss an exam, on one occassion. I am not talking about any other occurrences during his teaching period there for the sake of summary.
As for audience of seminars, it seems that you've been out of PAF KIET for quite some time. Things have changed. I've worked closely with PAF KIET on multiple seminars/conferences in the past year or so, and I personally saw exactly how and who they took to these seminars.
I graduated from NED University and taught there for five years, all the while admitting and accepting the shortcomings there, most of them not due to students but to people in my own trade there, and I tried to do what I could to fix some of those issues. You are running away from the problem. PAF KIET is just one of the examples. This country is full of such institutions. It's a national issue, and as I mentioned, it is not just academics in which we see such jokes.
With due respect, in rage, you are merely talking non sense. Knowledge of what is taught when in institutes in Pakistan is not a selection criterion for MVP. Doubt me for all you want. It doesnt change anything. Those who know me, are aware of the reality.
I will delete your comments when you would start using foul language.

Anonymous said...

Assalmulikum,

well i am just a blog surfer and just got the chance to read this message related to PAF KIET, and was really very disappointed to know that how can 1 judge the whole institute by just interacting with few students. well i would start by saying that i am also a graduate of PAF KIET and would agree with the anonymous person that you should think about other people careers before you comment on such things. Well right now i am working as a SAP Consultant and if u know that being a SAP consultant is not a small thing. It is 1 of the most highly paid job in the entire field of IT. so u c saqib saheb being a PAF KIET graduate i am 1 of them. But yes i would agree that their might be few students who r really a disgrace to the institute, but sir this is a fault on the student's part that they dont bother about their future. no 1 can blame their parents as well but u c these students r not kids. they are grown up ppl. they should realise wat they are there for.
I would also like to say and i hope that u would agree with me that in the field of IT the student him self have to study and excel.. teachers are only there to guide u and thats abt it.

Now i hope tht i am able to correct your misperception abt the institute and would suggest u to please think abt other people's career in such kind of topics.

Fahad Salman said...

Hie..

Disappointing comment about the PAF KIET. I m also a graduate from PAF KIET and i know my caliber as well as my Teachers and my University fellows.. I know some of the NED's graduate, and their concepts are too shaky.. they have no clear concepts... and about the faculty Oh my Good, You must visit the MCIT Dept. but overall i know NED is a good uni. and on the behave on those students, i ll not blame on the whole university...

So, Mr. Saqib plz stop these kind of comments...

Faisal Nasim said...

I think you should stop allowing anonymous posts. People who delibrately send such posts as anonymous usually don't know what they are talking about. What are you people hiding from?

I'm not going to respond to any anonymous posts but I just want everybody who posted to read the post one more time! That PAF KIET event was an example, the real villain of his story is someone else. Go figure.

Adnan Farooq Hashmi said...

OK...here I come!


@Anonymous

Since I was the once who related this incident to Saqib sahab, I think it is important to point out to "Anonymous" that Saqib sahab was not specifically pointing PAF KIET in his post, but was merely stating a fact about the state of professional education in the country, citing the seminar at PAF KIET as an example.

Please also note that this was not an attempt to belittle PAF KIET or its students; so you should not be offended by what he posted here. I was there at the seminar too. The audience comprised of students from BS (Computer Science) ONLY, ranging from 1st to 4th year students, and only 3-4 knew anything about OOP concepts. The Dean, himself, pointed the shortcomings of the students when he addressed the audience after the seminar.

Again, we are merely stating a fact; and NOT generalizing all PAF KIET graduates. There are always those who come out smelling like roses from a heap of shit. Your tone, language, and personal attack on the blogger's integrity cast into doubt your own education and ability.

Fahad Salman said...

anonymous:

this is something imoprtant, thats why bloggers add this feature in this forum... we cant neglect these comments and yeh on logon k hian jo sirf surffing kertey hian, they are not interested to post any comment.

aur bhaii logon main ney 4 years PAF KIET main guzarain hian aur main ney koi aisa siemenar nahe dekha jis main sarey ak hee major k students hon.

i, my self also organize these kind of siemenars aur os mian PHDs. aye they , os main bhe her terhan k students they So, this is rediculous k sarey "FINAL YEAR K STUDENTS THEY"...

plz stop this now...

this is a matter of 'Quality Education' you cant point out any of the institute here...

Fahad Salman said...

Why some of people here are quiet scared about Anonymous Posts,

is type k forums per loog mostly perhney atey hian post kerney nahe aur mostly loog accounts nahee benatey....

face kerna sekho hhaiii...

Adnan Farooq Hashmi said...

I guess the seminar you are mentioning was a general one, which is why everyone showed up. INETA Seminars and targeted to IT/CS students and announced/advertised in advance, and the faculty/dean made sure that only IT/CS students attend it.

Fahad Salman said...

i m Sorry to say that Mr.Adnan Farooq Hashmi saheb...

jis siemenar ki main baat ker reha hoon on k samney MVPs kuch nahee hian..

i m talking about the PHDs holder gays in AI, OOAD, etc...

Bhaii app loog PAF KIET ko mugh sey zaida nahe jantey...

Faisal Nasim said...

is type k forums per loog mostly perhney atey hian post kerney nahe aur mostly loog accounts nahee benatey....

Hah! I had a feeling somebody would come up with that excuse. There's a third mode on blogger, called 'OTHER', in which you only have to supply your name (no account required).

I'll tell you what happened... some blogger read this and forwarded to one of the KIET usergroups about this and asked them to reply with a negative attitude. :)

Adnan Farooq Hashmi said...

@Fahad Salman

You spent 4 years at PAF KIET, so a 4-month English Language Course won't hurt.

I guess the PhDs you are referring to were ones like Amir Liaqat Hussain. Besides, I would prefer to be an MVP anyday and help people, point out their mistakes and shortcomings, and correct them, instead of being a babbling Mohajir like you.

Adnan Farooq Hashmi said...

By the way fellas, there were PhD "Gays" (as Mr. Fahad Salman pointed out), so I can very well imagine their expertise and your relationship with them.

Muhammad Saqib Ilyas said...

This is why I have such "great faith" in my people. The old generation ruined our country and the youth is following an even worse path. While the post was meant to point to a general country wide problem, the comments are retaliation to the particular example used. It doesnt matter if its PAF KIET or any other instituion, I've already said the situation has worsened. The enrolment in IT related program has dropped and also the intake quality has reduced. The exceptions are always there, but I am talking on average.
I never defended NED, so there is no point in being offended on part of PAF KIET. Till the present day, all I've done in my life is academics, and I've looked closely and objectively at most educational institutions in Pakistan. Every organization in Pakistan, be it educational or not is being run on ad hoc basis. We have no clear objectives or direction. We take things as they come, which may be good for mountain climbing, but for a people, you can see what it entails, and if you cant see what it entails, please do yourself an favor and stop reading my blog, because unless you've closed your eyes, you can see the poort state in which Pakistan is, and you're not my audience. My audience is those who realize that we are in a bad situation and are wondering what to do about it. Not those who want to deny that there's something wrong.
At the time you were studying the enrolment may have been excellent or the teachers excellent. PAF KIET still has Dr. Irfan who is one of the best guys in Pakistan, one of the few true academicians in the country, but you dont even know why. An average student would hate him because he gave poor grades. But teachers move on. Not many people stick to where they teach for as long as Dr. Irfan has. Even LUMS which pays very handsomely and provides on campus residence to the faculty, the teachers hop jobs. What is important is does the institution have a purpose other than making money, or survival, or some other lowly goal.
So, for God's sake, dont take it as an insult to yourself. I'm pointing out that institutions are playing with the present students careers.
Deny everything. There were business grads in the audience, fine. But a teacher who is teaching MFC, said he didnt teach DBMS when asked about generalization, polymorphism? How can you explain that? OK, you'll say that perhaps he is the only rotten egg at PAF KIET, but one problem of this serious nature does point out that there could be other problems, and I am sure there are. If you deny them, that's a different matter. I have nothing against the PAF KEIT students. If I did, I wouldnt have gone there over and over on seminars and conferences. I love all students, because they are a lot that has been abandoned by professionals like us, not being given proper direction or guidance.
So, dont think about where the problem is, we already know. Think about how to solve it. And you can go ahead and post with a true identity if you wish, because I dont hold grudges.

Muhammad Saqib Ilyas said...

By the way, I was told by the administration that these seminars are part of every class' schedules and attendance is mandatory, only one absence per semester is allowed on reasonable grounds so I would be right to expect that the audience would be the class for which the seminar is arranged. And from the intelligent questions from the audience during my previous seminars, I think that the relevant audience did make it. Behind the scenes, if the administration is doing a really big conspiracy, I dont know.